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| We are not against Islam, we are for freedom of conscience |
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| Monday, 16 August 2010 22:13 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Question : Will you repeat the picnic protest this year? Ibtissam LACHGAR: No, we will perhaps do a more symbolic protest, however nothing is planned as of yet. Do you regret the Ramadan Public fast breaking "picnic" of last year? Not at all. Our mission was a success, and many people have expressed their support. It opened the debate on Article 222 of the Penal Code, which prescribes a penalty of imprisonment for those who openly break the fast in public during the month of Ramadan. We are not against Islam, but we are for freedom of conscience. For every Moroccan, whether atheist, Christian or Muslim, to be treated in an an equal footing. Are you afraid of offending some of the views? Contrary to what I hear often, I think that Moroccan society is prepared to discuss this topic. Moreover, the Moroccan Human Rights Association (AMDH) has had secularism in the agenda of its last congress. Did the famous "picnic" had an impact on your life? We were arrested and banned from leaving the country for several months. Since then we are regularly subjected to threats. However, no legal action has been brought against us. Interview first published in French at Jeune Afrique
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namelss
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Ibtissam Lachgar
For Those who call the (MALI) group (privileged and spoiled kids) should know that the group members have different backgrounds, Moroccans who have never left morocco, Moroccan who can’t express Themselves in French, people of modest means, Moroccans who have had enough of being ostracized by society for their Beliefs, People who could care less for eating in public,
hile MoroccoBoard.com encourages discussion on all subjects, including sensitive ones, the comments posted are solely the views of those submitting them. MoroccoBoard.com does not necessarily endorse or agree with the ideas, views, or opinions voiced in these comments. This is a moderated forum. Comments deemed abusive, offensive, or those containing profanity may not be published.
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keep real being a dual citizen of this great country the united states and morocco i do see how the usa as a more mature society established laws to protect minorities without confusing that with respecting the the general order of the land.....while morocco is still in the process of democratzing its institutions ... these same people who claim protesting in the name of freedom of what if they may call it are the same people who are enjoying their private clubs whether in ramadan or in the rest of the year... the funny thing is that these same few people and yes i said few but succesful too on a social and financial scale will never go hang out even to eat a sandwich where the majority of people are and some how they felt obligated to go protest by breaking the fast in a public places it is not just a free publicity it is a wicked and a sarcatic form of fighting for human rights .... the rule is that the minority has the right to be protected while respecting the way of life of the majority .... if only these same people would protest to challenge a system that guaranties them all benefits while the majority is living on the edge of survival , they would gain my upmost respect and cheering..till that day i recommand that they keep enjoying their private clubs and welfare and let the rest of people hold at least to what gives them a sense of survival with all the hardship they are dealing with on a daily basis |
Jamal Benayad
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Hi Hi every body i think what we should do if to free the religions eerybody should know that his rights are ends when others rights started we need to respect each other and we are all humans what we should care is to get the education for our children to teach each other to listen to our problems and to respect the other point of view or at lest to listen love and peace guys thats important no war no problems we have enough just look at global warmth it is a big problem that face humanity whatever is your religion or thoughts so lets think about that thank you |
Rational
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A blind leading the crowds @ american2009: You say fasting is good for your health. Fine. Do it but don't bother me! I prefer to run, eat fruit, and stay away from bad habits. Why aren't we outlawing the obvious negative effects of smoking???!!! Screwed logic Mr. or Ms. American 2009. |
Achraf Bentaleb
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I agree I support the protest and I am a muslim who prays and fasts like every other muslim.People dont get it..this protest is not against Islam..it is against freedom takers..in the koran Allah talks about freedom of religions..everybody has the right to do what they want..quit forcing yourself and religion on people. |
ani
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what? I wonder what Allah Will be saying on Judgment Day though? I think my beloved Morocco in many aspects of everything is getting way off the Straight Path of Allah. Where is the great spiritual side of Ramadan being talked about much? What is a so-called "Muslim country" about? I think people maybe should concentrate on what Ramadan is all about..the day you wish to be the law-makers then run for those offices if you are able. And if the lawmakers and the Government..the Kingdom..do not do rightly then it is only Allah Most High Who Will be Judging them on Judgment Day. Maybe this woman should be wearing hijab if she is Muslim..I do and I am taunted and mostly treated hatefully here in America..it is all so sad too me..Ani..an American who loves Morocco more than anywhere on earth. xo |
american2009
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Again another shame... Assalamou3alaykoum Ignorance make folks debating a topic without even studying or asking doctors about the good of fasting...i'm not even relating the religious part...that is another subject... Before anybody open his dirty mouth and start reacting just making him/herself usefull with nonsense comment ,studying the great effect of fasting should me the 1st move than we will see the impact specially after 30 days , i'm excluding the real sick people who can't do it . |
Jamal Benayad
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Why do u think what u do is right do u think eating during the day while others fasting is a good think for these people do you think the only way to protest is to do it in public does Moroccan law force you to fast or force u to act against people that are fasting think about this and let me know what ur goal show urself |
TruthSeeker
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Fasting and other religions MRE Houston Its great other people respect your fasting during Ramadan; Do you respect their fasting time ? Moslems make Christens feel guilty when they eat or drink in front of Moslem people in Ramadam but Moslems forget their time of fasting and hardy ever respect it about 40 % Christens do Lint before Easter Sunday in USA By the way Fundamentalist Moslems are most Liberal and follow Coran in true sense not radical translation and interpretations and people who thinks they are Fundamentalist are lost moslem and Influence by Wahabisim and like sects and on wrong path and need reforming Lent : 40 Days of Lent In current Western societies the practice is considerably relaxed, though in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches abstinence from all animal products including fish, eggs, fowl and milk sourced from animals (e.g. goats and cows as opposed to the milk of soy beans and coconuts) is still commonly practiced, meaning only vegetarian meals are consumed in many Eastern countries for the entire fifty-five days of their Lent. In the Roman Catholic Church it is traditional to abstain from meat from mammals and fowl on Ash Wednesday and every Friday for the duration of Lent, although dairy products are still permitted. An alteration of this practice is found in the State of Louisiana, where Roman Catholics abstain from eating non-seafood meat on Friday but allow themselves to consume any type of seafood; which is abundant in most parts of the state. On Ash Wednesday and Good Friday it is customary to fast for the day, with no meat, eating only one full meal, and if necessary, two small meals also respect other in their Fasting time |
MRE - Houston - TEXAS - USA
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Good discussion guys! Thank you Youssef, Lecturer and others with positive thinking! Constructive discussion brothers and sisters! Let's keep it up. Takabbala Allah o siyyamakoum and all Muslims. aameen. |
Lecturer
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For the seculars and atheists in the room: Jumping on the bandwagon What you are advocating is shortsighted, self-serving and ultimately self-defeating. This isn’t about food, or eating in public, but more about what Ramadan is and symbolizes (the potential of could very well be) for our people, the overwhelming majority of our people. If you want to affect change, look for the stuff that bring people together and build on it by challenging people , for example, to live up to the message of Ramadan. What many seem to miss is what Ramadan and could mean to the future of Morocco, but what is Ramadan anyway? Ramadan is a month of renewal, new beginning, or if you wish your touch stone. Think of Ramadan as your soft switch, or even your old friend: ON/OFF switch on your machine. What do you do when you machine starts to act up, you try to troubleshoot the problem by perhaps pressing ctrl/alt/del … etc, and if all fails you try to restart your machine, sometimes by literally yanking the power cable. Why is that? To fully appreciate the analogy, you will need to know about computers, conflict, and destructive/malicious programs, and what happens when you give your machine tasks that exceed its computing and memory reserves. The idea is that if you embody the spirit of Ramadan for ONE MONTH, then the possibility exists that you and I and therefore the collective state of people is permanently altered for the good. Can imagine what would be like? Please think about it. |
Youssef SF
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... MRE Houston, Two things I wish to challenge you on your argument- first you say that Americans will always challenge a law legally. On the contrary, American history is rich with examples of civil disobedience-- willfully breaking laws that are seen as unjust. Without civil disobedience, America would not have those aspects of its society which are its most admirable. Take even a cursory glance at any civil rights struggle (ending of slavery, giving women the vote, disability rights, etc) and it will reveal that progress was made due to the courage of those who participated in civil disobedience. It is a valid and important part of democracy. Change does not come only at the ballot box (especially in cases when the ballot box is tampered with.) Secondly, you make the point that you would not ask your coworkers to eat somewhere else because this is "their" country. Ok, but the question i asks is, how would those "respectful" Americans respond to a legal requirement? Would you still see their behavior as respectful? Probably they would not ask-- they would just comply, either resentfully or not. The beauty of their question, and why it is an exemple of respect, is that it is voluntary and not forced. But even more to your point: Those who are enacting civil disobedience in Morocco are not guests in Moroccco-- they are Moroccans, trying to challenge what they believe is an unjust law in their country. Don't get me wrong-- I favor respectful behavior when folks are fasting. The question for me, however, is not whether people should eat in front of those who fast, it is whether the penalty should be to get arrested for eating. To me it is ridiculous to arrest someone for the simple act of feeding themselves. What harm does the eater do to the faster? I will also go so far as to say, you are right: it is entirely possible that when we remove laws that prohibit people from acting out of their own free will (ie, allowing them to eat in public during Ramadan, or making other "unislamic" behaviors legal) that you may have more people acting in such a way. So, yes, you might lose an enforced islamic culture. This does not equal with a lawless society. A secular government can allow for a society's values to remain in tact without forcing the practice of (or denial of) religious practices. This, I think, is what I like most about practicing Islam in America. I can fast, I have the right to practice my religion, but it is not forced on me. As anon reminds us in his comment bellow: There is no compulsion in religion. Let the faster fast for Allah's sake alone, not due to a law. Cheers! |
Lesage
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Morocco a free country I'd like to add my comments to what it was said before. Believe me or not , Morocco is a country when you can enjoy your freedom of speech, but constructive speeches and not using this opportunity to provoke. This woman she is free to do what she wants also eating during Ramadan, but we will ask to her to RESPECT the others who are fasting. Good example is when the foreigners from other culture came in Morocco for business or holiday they never eat before the fasting people. That we can say a Good education. Be wiser... |
MRE - Houston - TEXAS - USA
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Abiding by a Law vs. Believing in it @ Youssef SF: I am no majesty, and here is what I am trying to say: You are still missing the point. Morocco is a Muslim state whether anybody likes it or not. A law is enacted through legislation and passed and applied and enforced. If you want to challenge it, you can do so, but not chaotically and through disturbing the peace. Do it legislatively! It is one thing to abide by the law and it is another to AGREE with it. I hope I made my point clear. The question that I wish you have asked me to forward to my coworkers is: If such a law existed, would you abide by it or not? I guarantee you they will say YES. Americans know that every law has to be respected otherwise the price you could pay is high. Then they will say this is a crazy law as they told you. Then you will ask them: How would you move about changing it? Their answer will be: through the voice of the people, through the legislative process. It is happening in California with the legalization of gay marriage (Astarfirou Allah) and in Arizona with the new immigration law. Watch how the people in both states are trying to challenge the laws they don’t agree with and learn from the process. I have nothing against atheist Moroccans. They chose their path and we chose ours. Also “La ikraha fi ddeen”. But I do not tolerate it when they try to convert Morocco into a western state. Moroccan culture is already corrupt by a lot of anti-Islamic aspects: alcohol shops, bars, pubs, nightclubs, prostitution houses, hashish agriculture industry, bribery, unfair treatment of handicapped citizens….. ou zid ou zid ou zid. When I see someone attacking the little bitty flair of religious aspects that still exist in the culture, I cannot sit still, “wakha ykoun miyyit liya lgalb”. Oh no, we will talk and talk loud to protect our religious identity “wa la’w kariha al kafiroun”. Many Jews were granted the Moroccan citizenship. Tell a Jewish person to roam the streets of Morocco and eat in public during Ramadan. The law will be applied the same way on the Jewish Moroccan. If an American is granted the Moroccan citizenship (which will never happen), he / she will be equally subjected to the law while in Morocco. I will never ask my coworkers not to eat by my desk during Ramadan. I am in their country, living under their laws and coexisting with their culture. Come on, that is just ABSURD of you to say and is not worth further discussion. They asked me if their eating in front of me bothers me because they respect me for who I am, for what I stand for and for the mere humanitarian aspect as they think the smell of food will make me “suffer” and not because I am a MINORITY. They admire the fact that I can deprive myself from food etc. from sunrise to sunset.. they keep saying I don’t know how you do it… my answer is: nothing is impossible when you believe! I am a Muslim first and a Moroccan second. Muslims are messengers in foreign countries. We are messengers through our behaviors, our business dealings and our ethics… To all Muslim brothers and sisters out there, remember our duty to show the true loving and tolerant picture of Islam. Al hamdu lillah, a coworker just embraced Islam last Sunday. She said “it’s been over 2 years that I am trying to find the truth within me, and you, all my Muslim coworkers (from different countries) made it a bit easier for me, so thank you” By the way Youssef, she is blonde and have blue eyes and is already praying tarawih at the masjid. Allah o akbar. "Ina Allah'a yahdi man yasha'o al hidayah" Peace! |
anon
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There is No Compulsion in Religion This is exactly why we need Secularism. The public space belongs to the public, not the Islamists. |
Moroccan
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Flawed comparisons I am truly chocked at the out of place comparisons some people are making here like the tolerance of Americans etc. Is it ignorance or self-deception? I wish our devout Moroccan Muslims think more clearly and intelligently about these important issues. Like some have already remarked, they could become the victims of their own reasoning. |
Youssef SF
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Kindness vs. Acceptance @MRE Houston, you are confusing few things here! First, I dare you to gotell your coworker about the law we are discussing here. Tell them that where you defend and support a law that would put them in jail for 3 months if they go to a burger joint or bring a sandwich to work while your majesty is fasting! Guess what, I asked that question to my coworkers and friends, their answer is: you guys are crazy! I wonder: what is the different between your coworkers and your moroccans fellows who also eat during Ramadan? Why don't you have a problem with your American coworkers but have a problem with your Moroccan brothers even though the moroccans are also asking if they can eat too? Do we need blue eyes and blond hair in order to get the same treatment? Now I have another request for you: Go ahead and tell your coworkers that YES it does bother you to see them or anybody eating while you're fasting! Please tell them so; and tell them that you want them to hide somewhere you can't see them throughout this month. You can also add that you wish there was a law that would incarcerate them if they don't agree with you! Please do this and report back to us. Your coworkers are being nice and tolerant of your beliefs because you are a MINORITY not because you are something special being a Muslim. Please learn a lesson from them and try to respect and be nice to the minority of those who don't believe in fasting! Cheers! |
Buccaneer in the desert
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That's not Ibtissam in the picture That's not Ibtissam "Betty" in the picture organized religions are nothing but glorified gangs with outdated rituals and and 6th century state of mind. Wake up people, what's the big deal if someone decides to get a snack in the street during Ramadan, most of you hypocrites do it in hiding, sleep all day or "travel" most of the month. Take a look at Tunisia, the country functions during Ramadan, WE DON'T |
MRE - Houston - TEXAS - USA
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MALI group (Members Against Laws of Islam) Here in Houston, all my coworkers know that I am fasting (alhamdulillah) and some of them would not eat next to my desk by respect to me and my beliefs. Others would bring their food and ask me: "if this bothers you, I can move away" and my response is: "thank you for your consideration, I am OK." Look how considerate some of these people are! I respect that. For me the MALI group stands for (Members Against Laws of Islam), remember that. Calling for abolishing a law that punishes a Moroccan who eats in public during Ramadan is a call for radical change. It is a symbolic act (even Ibtissam said it). It is simply the TIP of the ICEBERG of the agenda of these "al Jama3at a takfiriya" (Study the categories of KOUFR in Islam to understand this statement). The MALI group has the right to express its opinion but it has done it the WRONG WAY here. OK, check this out: If I don't like the choice of color for the red light to signal a complete stop at an intersection, what do I do to change it...? According to Ibtissam, RUN the red light because this will send a strong signal... that’s exactly what MALI followers did. If you want to change the law, go through the legal process until you get to a stage where the houses of Parliament will vote on it. Demonstrate if you wish but don’t break the law while demonstrating. You do that and you are simply an idiot because you will be detained and charged. How idiotic is that? As the MALI group has the right to demonstrate, WE, the Muslim people of Morocco have the right to demonstrate against them and stop their agenda and crush it, but legally of course. We will also do that through the people who "represent us" in the parliament by voting against changing this law. And please don’t start the discussion of “what parliament, what representatives….etc”. No country or People have become democratic overnight… work hard for it and maybe our grand children will be enjoying democracy and transparency in government one day. TO MALI group (Members Against Laws of Islam) and its followers, we, the Muslim people in Morocco, are “lakoum bilmirsad”. you are free to EAT IN PRIVATE AS MUCH AS YOU WISH, who on earth gives a rat’s behind, jahannam will never run out of space, it awaits ur likes.. ya latif. so what’s next? legalization of drugs? |
Apache
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... The majority rules, a concept clearly understood everywhere in the world. And one can even claim that it is innate to our very nature. We elect nation leaders, enact new laws, and take decisions amongst ourselves based on this very same idea. Our history, our traditions, our culture, our religious, and our social and economic states are all factors that we take into account when we formulate policies, standards, procedures, and guidelines in hope of providing harmony and peace to society at large. And that’s what makes France France and Morocco Morocco. 99% of Moroccans are Muslims so it is only natural for our laws to stem from our common religious beliefs. Morocco does not force the other 1% to participate in the same religious practices because that would be an attack on personal liberty. As the laws of Morocco stand today eating in public during Ramadan is seen as an instigator for chaos, and thus order must be restored in the case of infractions. The state’s number one responsibility is to guarantee order and security to all its citizens. Everything is relative :) |
Salwa Alami
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This is how some people hate us It's amazing the perception some people have of Islam and muslims. every TV station you tune into here in the US you will most likely see something like this. How long will it take to change these people's minds? Maybe when hell freezes over or when pigs fly... Ramadan Kareem and cheers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM1Xh9Ov3uc |
Moroccan Patriot
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Freedom to go to Heaven Dear Secular Moroccan, Although I agree with you on the issue of NOT harassing or arresting people who choose to break fast in Public, I believe the way I do because I am (or at least try my best to be) a devout Muslim Fundamentalist. I believe that Islam is a religion of Peace and understanding that does not force its way on the Ummah. I think that the best way to guide is through gentle nudges and compassion, not through condemnation and threats. You seem like a very smart person, I would urge you to reconsider your position on Ramadan, consuming alcohol and other ways "secular" muslims violate the tenets of Islam. I have been living in Morocco for four years now, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that Morocco is NOT a Muslim Country. If it were a muslim country, the legislature would have laws that prevented the population from engaging in non-Islamic activities - and by non Islamic Activities, I am talking about allowing the purchase of Alcohol in Supermarkets, except during Ramadan (so hypocritical (munafikin) it almost makes me throw up) and allowing banks to lend people and businesses money by charging interest, or the self hating Moroccans who are allowed to have dogs!!! I recommend to everyone that they choose to learn more about Islam. If you live in accordance with the teachings of Islam, I absolutely guarantee that you will live a happier life. Ramadan Kareem to everyone. |
Secular Moroccan
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What would I have done? @ Moroccan Dude: Honestly, I don't know what I would have done in the situation you describe in the plane. As a secular person, I would not care the least. If I am sitting next to a family or an elderly person who obviously religious during Ramadan, I personally would not ask for the wine. I would wait for a few hours. But I could never ask that woman not to drink wine even if it bothers me. In the end it is her right and she is threatening no one. As for the smell of wine, excuse me, I have to be honest: I sat next to some travelers whose feet smell worse than wine! Let's be honest, cleanness and hygiene don't always go together with religiosity. We see this everyday in Morocco. But that's another topic. I just want to clarify one important point: secular Muslims or Moroccans are not against Islam when they claim a right to be non-religious. Some of you may be puzzled and surprised to hear that we are as insulted and vehemently opposed to the ongoing Islamophobia in the US, France, Switzerland, Belgium, and the rest of Europe. It is bigotry and racism and we reject it and we will fight it. In fact, if you read Le Monde, Le Monde Diplomatique, the NYT, the Washington Post, and other media outlets in the West, most of the Muslim writers who criticize the West and liberal societies for their anti-Muslim bigotry are secular Muslims. Devout Muslims should have the right to practice their faith freely anywhere they wish in the world. But as secular Muslims we demand the same: the right to be free from religion, the right not to be prosecuted. The idea that Morocco is Morocco, France is France, the US is the US is nonsense. It could justify racism, bigotry, and the laws that the Sarkozies and Le Pens are trying to impose on Muslims in Europe. Their argument is France is France, if you don't eat pork, don't drink alcohol is as objectionable as Morocco is Morocco, do Ramadan or leave Morocco! |
Karim
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... Unbelievable: Two articles side by site on this site. One is all about embracing Islam rituals (http://www.moroccoboard.com/vi...im-rituals) the other calls to abolish a law that reflects in its shadow the respect that one muslim shows another. The debate here is not going after Islam, Morocco, or any other non-sense (democratic gov't, freedom of religion or speech). The fact is Morocco is a Muslim country ruled by Islamic laws, period! This law doesn't hurt anyone, deprive anyone from any right, nor prohibits muslims from eating during the holy month of Ramada. The law simply says that if a muslim want to eat, let it be at home, and not in public. The law is also there to provide a blanket cover of respect for people who fast. For Ms. Ibtissam to organize such event (which she's free to do so) is merely a call for attention. She's a psychologist after all! A master of persuasion amongst other things. But one thing is clear: IT WAS JUST A PICNIC. I find this baseless topic -not the comments not worth debating. |
Lecturer
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Transitions has it own laws Wa si Secular: The key must fit; otherwise, it is no good. The stuff that is happening in Morocco right now is typical of transitory state, and hopefully, we will have the other end is a healthy steady state. I doubt Morocco will survive an "overshoot" let alone reach a steady state after overshooting. In other words, when a door that has long been closed shut, suddenly opens wide, EXPECT to have some if not a whole lot of uninvited guests waiting to sneak/creep in – there are no VIP guests if you know what I mean. Uninvited guests, if allowed in, CAN wreak havoc. In English: Morocco is Morocco (not the USA or some place else), and as such it has its own mountain to climb – at its own natural pace. Taking an idea/concept from another country and trying to apply it to Morocco with no consideration of all of the variables at play is childish game. |
TruthSeeker
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... Please read "Amao"'s comments and you will understand what the clergy to do people for their power and monies They black mail people emotional and religiously by saying things no Moslem can say NO to but most Moslem are not aware of their rights in Islam of freedom and free will under basic moral and modesty then these clergy and Imams in force their version of Islam in form of Sharia law which is un-Islamic and not in Coram thus Moslem are victims of these laws and clergy and Imams Islam has no constitution , guidelines in Coran are so open and liberal but they are all always taken out of context and wrongfully interpreted by clergy and Imams and most Moslems do not take time to read the Coran to know the real truth and they take and believe the clergy and Imams for it; which obviously is a mistake Moslems should Keep Imams and clergy in their Place for rituals and ceremonial things Only Sharia law was not written nor taught by Prophet or by first 4 righteous Caliphs of Islam if this was true law of Islam, they would written it and practice it What is happening in Morocco and other Moslem countries in religion area of life is result of lack of information which is responsibilities of individual responsibilty and back mail by clergy and Imams Moslems take this time in this age to reform and free them selves from these Clergy and Imams and be real Moslems who are tolerant and know their true rights in Islam of personal freedom |
Morcelli
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... Secular What? Sara Palin? right wing politicians? Extremism! intolerance! What planet are you talking about? You sure squeezed in as many trendy words you could possibly squeeze in fewer lines as you possibly can. This is cracking me up. really! Thanks. |
A moroccan dude
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Let all try to be good human beings first... @Secular Moroccan Keith Olbermann is one of my favorite political commentators. He is the one I listen to when I get back from work in search of some sanity away from the hassle of day to day chores. However, there are more Glenn Becks in this country that there are Keith Olbermanns. There are more people that watch and more importantly believe FoxNews than people who watch MSNBC. That said, there is a ever growing movement of hatred towards Muslims in the US that is no longer hidden. Mosques are being bombed in Florida and not no one says anything about it in the news. On sept 11th, a church in Florida is planning on burning copies of the Koran in public. Pigs are let go on the front yards of mosques to disgust Muslims and force them to move and the list goes on and on. Haven’t we all seen this before back in the days where people were persecuted in Europe because of their beliefs. Isn’t that why people landed on Plymouth rock? Is this what the founding fathers had in mind? Enough of this and back to the subject at hand. During my last trip back to Morocco last year which was during Ramadan, I sat not too far a Moroccan lady who seemed respectable and courteous. However, when the time of the Sohour (last time to eat before stating the fast for those readers of are not familiar with the term) came, on addition to her meal, she ordered a bottle of wine. I, like the hundreds of Moroccan muslims on the plane was astonished and a bit shocked at first. But as time went on, I stopped trying to judge while I could see the questionable starings from everybody else next to us. Should I have said something? Who am I to say something? Maybe she has an addiction and she needed her fix. She was whiting her right to drink alcohol during Ramadan but the rest of the passengers also had the right to enjoy their sohour without the smell and sight of alcohol. Freedom is very subjective and we all need to be aware that every action has a consequence and a reaction. What would you have done???? |
Secular Moroccan
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Stereotypes All of you who express intolerance toward those who are not practicing Muslims reinforce the stereotype of the intolerant, ignorant Muslims propagated by right wing politicians like Sarah Palin. Even worse, you are undermining the voices of non-Muslim Americans who are trying to convince America that Muslims and Islam are not to be confused with extremism. Look at this video to understand fully what is at stake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0 |
moha joha
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set yourself free first we should get over the echos of events and get somewhere calm and sound where we could ask the right questions ..not ask the questions other people ask ..other people want us to ask .. if we take this girl to the desert i m sure not a camel would care about her and then when no body cares about her nor hear her "freedomz" then what s next ? then what ? and then i ask her is that what all your freedom is about ? is anything else ? anything new magic special other than just eating ? we all eat all the time but isnt it beautiful to stop eating once in a while ? i m not trying to convince her ..no body will convince her but herself .. nothing is new under the sun ..ignorance might trap some people in a small space and they never get to see that they only know what s in that small space .. and they are pleased when they hear the echos of their own selfish being .. if you call for freedom i then ask you to set yourself free first |
Abdellah from Houston
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Ibtissam, r u challenging Allah or the Moroccan gvnmt? You think you understand religious freedom... no you don't. You think you are making a point about human rights... no you are not. you think you are fighting injustice... oh you wish you were. Honestly, is this the only injustice you were able to observe in Morocco. You are barking at the wrong tree. Think outside the box. Our beloved Morocco is a proud MUSLIM and tolerant country. We are a Muslim country because the MAJORITY (note that this is a democratic term) has chosen so. what does it mean... it means you can still be of another faith or none.. at your wish... but it does not mean you can disobey the LAWS set by this Muslim country. The Law in question here governs the public domain, it sets limits to the behavior of a Moroccan during a holly month where millions of citizens are fasting. This law does not allow a law enforcement officer to go INSIDE your HOUSE and check on you to see whether you are fasting or not. Inside your house is private and in your privacy, you are free to behave the way you want but your believes set your parameters. Your fear of your creator guides you then. But as I can see, Ibtissam has no fear of Allah... Don't you worry, God will make you feel all powerful and you will still pursue your agenda because you think it is the right thing to do for "human rights. Actually, I think you are infringing my right as a Muslim when you eat in public during Ramadan. In America or Europe or.. we respect the rights of others to eat, drink, walk and talk according to their laws. so in Morocco, we want you to respect ours. Otherwise, instead of trying to abolish this law, seek asylum in a Non-Muslim country. I will leave you with this thought: let's see what human rights will do for you once you die and go to your grave... please let me know... call me or text me ... oops I forgot.. you will not be able to .. you will be all by yourself but there will be some pretty pist off angel with you. May Allah have mercy on us and you! |
Moroccan Patriot
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A Matter of Law - Apartheid that is The Law against people eating in Public during Ramadan is redicilous. It is anti Islamic to punish people for eating during Ramadan. As for Morocco being a Muslim Country, what a laugh!!! People do not play with dogs in Muslim Countries. Hard Alcohol is not sold in Supermarkets in Muslim Countries. Muslim Countries do not have Bars and Nightclubs on every other corner in Muslim Countries. Nepotism, Corruption, theft and contempt for your constituents is not the norm for how leaders view the people they are supposed to serve in muslim countries. Mosques are not required to be closed between prayer times in Muslim nations. Morocco is NOT a muslim Country. Incidentally, I am a very proud Muslim Alhamdullah. I fast in Morocco, as I fasted in the US when I was a young child. I am very proud of my Muslim religion, the issue to me is that Islam is about showing patience and mercy. If others choose to eat, even in public, we can talk to them kindly and with a smile about the benefits they would derive from fasting, but it is not our place to punish them. It is unislamic to punish fast breakers. |
Amao
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So sad I did not go all over the comments, but I feel sorry for Morocco as a lot of those who are speaking and/or writing know nothing about the history of Morocco. May I ask those who are in 60 years old or a little more and were living in Casablanca or Rabat or Tangier (in a city) to inform all of the youngest how morocco was progressive and tolerant. What the new youngest are requesting was "normal" during that days. They know (because I know it to) that a nonmuslim or a muslim was abble to go to the restaurants during Ramadan and have his breakfast at 8 or 9 am and lunch as he wanted. Intollerance and "the islamisation" was something like "imposed" to the moroccan; and now all the moroccans are paying for what has been done in purpose for ............and not in the name of Islam. I have a question to those who are preaching the "ultraortodoxisme" and as a muslim: "If I do something wong,"against the Islam" will the judge or who ever is taking an action against me, end up in the gehene with me", certainly not so please leave every muslim to live his own believes and as we say in Morocco "every cat is hanged by its own foot" |
TruthSeeker
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Tolerance Tolerance is the key word for people who Fast and non-fasting (And in life in general.. not only in Ramadan ..year round) Moslem living outside Moslem society show Tolerance because they have no choice why can't they can't do same in Moslem country ?? Religion changes according to location ???? Islam is most liberal religion ever .... If Moslems know real Islam, that's 6 million question |
Germelou
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Ihssane a benti.... Here is the deal: You use your daddy's network and money to fight nepotism in Morocco and convince your buddies in the "fils et fille a papa chocolat" club to fend for themselves and refrain from taking a job better deserved by a non-connected kid and we will allow you to have a picnic in public during Ramadan in front of the barlamane everyday while les chomeurs are demonstrating. Deal? What's in your picnic basket anyway? just curious. lkhoubz derrou jou3 |
Secular Moroccan
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Be careful what you wish for! @ Lecturer: Your reasoning may land you and your loved ones in a lot of trouble and justifies fascistic rule. Imagine the Moroccan government getting involved in legislating and deciding who is a good Moroccan and who is bad Moroccans according to some pre-selected criteria. Imagine now that those who are in charge of that office and have that authority develop some regionally based criteria like the Soussi headdress or the jellaba of doukkala as the ultimate of symbol of “Moroccaness.” Now imagine that you are neither from Souss, nor from Doukkala and you prefer the common dress from Northern Morocco. Would you be happy if asked to take the “nationality exam” again and again because you are not quite an “authentic” Moroccan? We have seen this before in other places and the results were catastrophic. Please measure the implications of your arguments. If we want to discuss class differences in Morocco, which is a very important and unsettling topic, let’s not confuse the terms of the debate with religious tolerance and individual choices. This stuff about fils a papa et chocolat is populist nonsense and will lead you nowhere, in Morocco or in the West. |
Youssef SF
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i***tic it is! Morcelli, I feel sorry for your kids! And yes, your comparisdon of poop and sex is way off the mark! You never miss an opportunity to pontificate about democracy, but at the same time you want to practice tyranny!!! I'd say take break t figure out what you want, don't just talk to doing smart! |
Lecturer
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What is wrong with this picture? Ironic indeed: a Clinical Psychologist who desperately needs a lesson or two on a topic that is so basic in Psychology – the psychology of interest here is that of the human species, not porcupines. Hint: KNOW the country where you live. Morocco isn’t the very small minority that serves wine on the table and speaks only French & …. and think they are superior to the rest and consider their Moroccan nationality a matter of “design error.” Despite all, Morocco is inherently a Muslim country and if you are unwilling to respect its people, traditions and laws, then LEAVE & DON’T COME BACK. Here is a proposal for the Moroccan Gov. to consider pre-filter for the kind of "out of context" junk that "les fils et fille a papa de chocolat" bring back to Morocco. Don't allow young Moroccans to go aboard, until they can demonstrate -- through an exam -- that they know sufficiently enough about their own country. The last we need are a bunch of misguided howies-like running around thinking they are among the selected few who have been enlightened while in EU, and because of their generous nature they want to bring the rest of us out of darkness. Rec.L: Pre-filter and, if all possible, post-filter. |
Another Patriot
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Confused! I too enjoy the spirit of the 26th night of Ramadan, the reciting of the Koran, the smell of candles and couscous, and the entire socail scene. But do I have the right to expect everyone to enjoy it the same way, if at all? No. Do I think that people who don't enjoy the spirit of Ramadan are less human? No. I fast one day only during Ramadan: the 26th day because I enjoy it. The same way, I don't think less of other people simply because they don't enjoy a cold beer in a hot summer evening. If playing the oud or the guitar, or reading relgious texts uplifts their spirit better it is totally OK with me. Why is this hard to understand? |
Morcelli
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... For those who are going after Morcelli, If you eat, eat, if you fast, fast, I can care less what you do, I care more about the regular citizen in Morocco. for instance, your mother, your father, your aunt, your grand mother, your sister and her 4 children. Some Ramadan eaters here are comparing NY with qal3at sraghna. Get a hold of yourself. Be serious would you?! |
Morcelli
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... Moroccan dude said " WHY IS THIS FORRUM TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE?????? " I agree. this is a very important issue that we should debate. We have an incoherent president who one day supports the construction of the mosque, next day, he questions the "wisdom" of building a mosque next o ground zero. We have a president who won an election because there was no alternative to Macain. A president who promised the world to everyone, instead he is squandering the economy and handing stimuli packages in the hope to fix things, it's like shooting a dart and hoping for the best. What a strategy!. Well things are not fixed, America is in deeper hole right now and he can no longer blame Bush. The worst thing that can happen to the presidency is to be flaky and indecisive. He's been just that. The republican seem to be a good deal right now, Bush was dumb but he never blinked when making decision. He time and again said " America is not at war with Islam" or "Islam is a peaceful religion". Mr obama is telling 300 million American that it is not good wisdom to build a mosque when the day before he said, Muslims have every right as do people from other faiths. Is this how he's going to reach out to the Muslim world and correct America's image among two billion people? If this is not incoherence, i do not know what it is. This president got to go. He's been nothing a big fiasco. He cares more about what the critic of 2 conservative republicans than about the farewell of 2 billion Muslim. I am voting Republican. At least republicans are straightforward. |
SimohamedNY
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let her express her "right" of eating and see what happens I wish they never arrested that bunch of ignorant insensitive p...ks, and let them go ahead with having their picnic. I am certain that we would have heard a totally different story that reads something like: A group of non-conformist who believe in the right to express their freedom to eat in day light in the month holy of Ramadan were attacked by a group of people in "Ain-hawada". Two of the group members were badly injured and required surgical intervention on their broken jaw and head. Another was in critical condition after he received a blow on the head with a "metwa". The rest of the group members had non-life threatening injuries to different parts of their bodies." Moroccan authorities do not need to do anything to stop these "fils et fille a papa de chocolat". Ms. Ibtissam, you seem like a smart nice person, and you profession, more than anything else, requires you be a good listener, aware and emphatic towards others' feelings and concerns. You live in a country where the majority is muslim, and if a few are able to understand your motives, others won't. Ramadan Karim! |
Morcelli
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... First thing first, only an idiot calls people who are fasting Idiotic. I am not the one who lose my sens of identity just because i happen to be in the US or elsewhere. No matter where I am , I am still Moroccan, I am still Arab, I am still a Muslim, and get this, I do fast and always has. It's during Ramadan that I get in touch with my spirituality and during this wholly month that i feel complete by doing something for a change. Fasting does not bother me, I do confess that i have to get up early to get my kick of caffeine, otherwise, I enjoy every minute of fasting and I enjoy my iftar with Andalusian Music in the background, I listen to the coran while on the road driving. I especially enjoy the whole enchilada of making the meal of iftar. I consider it an art, from going to the local market and picking fresh veggies to going to the butcher and get the freshest meat ( am not a vegetarian). I involve my kids in preparation of every meal. My son loves to massage the Salmon with olive oil and spices that I imported from Morocco. I love Ramadan, I love it even more during the summer because I can always squeeze lap swimming right before iftar. Ramadan is the best thing that happen to me and to my family. Sadly fore you, you will never get the chance to feel this. Enjoy your freedom to fast not too fast because the the truth is most of can care less about you or anyone like you does. This is a forum where we express our opinion that we do not necessarily agree if you agree or not. One last thing: Mary Pipher Quotes "I think history is inextricably linked to identity. If you don't know your history, if you don't know your family, who are you? " |
MoroccanGurl
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... I invite my fellow Moroccans on this site to be open-minded about this issue. I am assuming most readers either live in ths US or another western country. We wish for equal treatment of Muslims and we should strive for equal treatment of non-Muslims or non-religious in our country of birth. We can argue about reasons behind this movement and how it's simply more courteous to avoid eating in front of a fasting crowd but the fact remains that there is an actual law obliging people to hide the fact that they don't fast in Ramadan. If one is content with practicing his religion there is no reason to be offended others don't. |
maroc2010
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Lakum dinoukum wa liya din I am not sure why someone else's eating in public during Ramdan would bother me. It is just puzzling. I fast because of my convitions. Just like I have the right to act on my convitions, I want that right afforded to everyone. |
man en blanc
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ibtissam, you go girl! Eid Al-fitr this year, falls on September 10th in America. On the eve of you know what! Newt Gangrene will call the coincidence: another nefarious plot by the moslems, while the rabid dogs of the far right will try to abolish SOMETHING in the constitution! Maybe "the pursuit of happiness" segment. |
Taha
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... no one forces them to fast or eat, they don't fast and probably they don't believe in God and no one says one damn word to them because they are already exercising their freedom through living the lifestyle they choose. Now they are looking for more than freedom,they are doing their best to offend muslims and to destroy one of the five pillars of Islaam that is Fasting Ramadan. if you wanna eat then eat or travel somewhere else where you can do whatever you want during this month. May God destroy those who try to destroy His religion, Amen |
Secular Moroccan
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Comparing monkeys and oranges I don't mean to be arrogant but please Morcelli, Muslim, and Germelou read a little bit of history of religions, constitutional law, and philosophy before making statements comparing monkeys and oranges. Your statements are so beyond the ale one doesn't know where to begin to respond. I honestly don't want to be mean but it is hard to have a serious discussion when you compare Morocco to other democracies when it comes to religious freedom and individual liberty. Please stop doing that so we can talk seriously. |
Germelou
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Yah 3ela Hshouma 3elik a Ibtissam. A wili 3ela lpicnic. Get the sense sometimes that Morocco is going back to the 60s and 70s on certain topics. When the majority of a country is fasting the least someone who does not want to fast can do is be respectful and no eat in public. A question of decency, politeness and respect for others. Try to go eat in public during Sabath in a Jewish neighborhood in Israel or entering a church where folks are fasting to hold a picnic. Lefshoush duyal les fils et fille a papa de chocolat. |
A moroccan dude
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... We are comparing apples and oranges here. Pooping and eating in public are not the same thing physically, socially and metaphorically so let’s not go there. I am a Moroccan dude living in the NY metro area and I associate myself with this lady not because she and others decided to eat in public during the holy month of Ramadan but because a part of her freedom of expression was violated regardless of whether she is a Muslim, assumed to be one or she just decided to defy the “norms”. I associate myself with her because right now my first amendment as a US citizen ( among thousands or US citizens of Muslim background who live in the US) is being violated by a growing part of the population here by refusing to allow for the construction of a Muslim cultural center near ground zero. We should all remember this moment next time the US tried to lecture another country about religious freedom. WHY IS THIS FORRUM TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE?????? |
Redouane
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It is only eating... it is not defecating or having sex in public Defecating or having sex in public are universal laws that apply everywhere in the world not only in DC or Salt Lake city. One cannot even do these two idiotic acts in Morocco and it does not have to be in Ramadan... the holiest than thou month of hypocrisy and derision. It is eating that we are talking about... Why are people so idioctic to think that seeing someone eating in Ramdan is despicable? When are poeple like you going to look deeptly at yourself and not what others do in Ramadan? How can such act make you boil with anger and hatred. It seems to me that you hate yourself more for fasting, because if you do not hate yourself you would not have to blame others for your own weaknesses. A strong devout muslim is the one who controls his passions and anger specially during Ramadan, instead all we see is hatred and tyranical spells of death calling and lynching. |
muslim2
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... To Muslim and Morcelli, You are totally missing the point. It is about freedom of religion, pooping & sex are not religions as far as I know. Muslim, so basically, what you are saying is let's just oppress minorities? |
moro yankee
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who the hell is she? keep that freedom of conscience to your self, morocco is a muslim country first of all, and moroccans are tired of listening to a virtual freedom that bring misery and hardship to it society, for the sake of the ilusion of democracy and freedom of religion, she is a public embarassement for the moroccan media , but don't worry some body from the govt is watching, they just waiting for her to slip, then she'll pay the price for this none sense, and i hope it'll be soon, or she is running out of material, ahhhhh that's what happened. |
muslim
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u need to get a life freedom was never about breaking the law or going against the majority rather th opposite, one can only feel free if his existence and ideas although different from the majority does not feel treatened to the point of dramatisation. I think u are seaking attention nothing more ramadan karim |
Morcelli
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... let's say i decide to poop in public in washington DC, or have sex in public in Salt lake city, would I be excused in the name of freedom? For sure I get publicity and Jail for destroying public property and indecent exposure. That' what they got, as you can see there is no difference between the US and Morocco in the eyes of the law and the freedom that this people are asking for.. |
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